Episode 34
Robo-Workers Rising: The Future of Employment
The rapid advancements in AI are not just a techie topic; they're shaping the very fabric of our workforce and society. In this episode, we dive deep into the ongoing debate about whether AI is really set to take over our jobs or if it’s just a bunch of hype. Mike, Mikah, and I throw around some pretty striking stats, like how 94,000 jobs have already been lost to AI in 2025 alone—yikes! We also chat about how entry-level positions are especially vulnerable, as they often involve routine tasks that AI can handle with ease. But hey, while we're all a bit worried, we also ponder what this brave new world could mean for us and how we can adapt. So, grab your favorite beverage and lean back as we unravel the tangled web of AI's impact on our lives!
Transcript
Artie, can you hear us okay?
Speaker B:Yep, I can hear you loud and clear.
Speaker B:How's it going over there?
Speaker B:Are you, you working on something cool today?
Speaker A:It's going well, actually.
Speaker A:We're sitting down to record a podcast episode.
Speaker C:Didn't you, couldn't you figure that out by him saying us?
Speaker B:I had a little bit of a hunch.
Speaker B:Well, I'm ready to jump in whenever you need me.
Speaker B:What are we chatting about today?
Speaker A:Well, that's a valid question.
Speaker A:So we were just sitting here for about 10 minutes talking about what we should talk about, and I think we came up with just kind of the general state of AI, maybe sort of AI as it relates to jobs.
Speaker A:And there's still this weird disconnect between people saying, AI's coming to take lots of jobs, other people saying, nuh, no, it's not.
Speaker A:But the evidence is starting to pile up too.
Speaker A:I think Microsoft laid off another 9,000 people.
Speaker A:So I, I, I saw.
Speaker A:So Arty, maybe you can fact check this, because I did not.
Speaker A:But I saw a article the other day from some, some magazine that I trust, maybe Wired or something like that.
Speaker A: hing that said that so far in: Speaker A:Can you see that article, Artie, and see if it's true?
Speaker B:All right, just to make sure I'm getting the right article, if you can remember the title or any other details that would help me find it and confirm if that number is accurate.
Speaker A: hink the title was, so far in: Speaker B:So I couldn't find that exact article.
Speaker B:But there are definitely reports out there that show a big impact on jobs due to AI this year.
Speaker B:For example, Forbes mentioned that over 77,000 jobs have been eliminated in the tech sector this year partly due to AI.
Speaker B:And Microsoft did have a round of layoffs, about 9,000 people.
Speaker B:And AI was definitely a factor there.
Speaker B:So there's definitely some truth to that trend.
Speaker C:Artie, can you look up.
Speaker C:Amazon recently mentioned that they were going to cut a bunch of their workforce.
Speaker C:Can you look that up and talk more to that?
Speaker B:So it looks like Amazon is indeed planning to cut some of their workforce, and the main reason is that they're ramping up their use of AI.
Speaker B:Their CEO, Andy Jassy mentioned that AI is going to automate a lot of corporate roles, like in software development and marketing, which means fewer people will be needed for those tasks.
Speaker B:It's definitely part of a bigger trend in the industry right now.
Speaker C:But it's not just software jobs because they are a heavily dependent or they're heavily dependent on manual labor to sort things, move things, all that stuff, which is great for regular robots, let alone robots that can make decisions about the things they're doing.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And Amazon has been investing heavily in robotics for their warehouses, like those Kiva robots that move shelves around.
Speaker B:And now with AI.
Speaker B:And these robots can become even smarter, making decisions on the fly and doing tasks that used to require human judgment.
Speaker B:So it really does go beyond just software roles.
Speaker B:It's a pretty big shift.
Speaker C:And when you have the money of God.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And the money of God can help you make more money.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:That's what you do.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, you're.
Speaker A:It's interesting for companies that size, like the big ones.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Google, Amazon, Meta X, whatever, all the X companies are now financial.
Speaker A:Like finances are not a constraint on how they make these decisions.
Speaker A:And they're, they're both investing more and they're automating more of their own businesses as part of those investments.
Speaker A:And it's not just.
Speaker A:They're not just doing it because, like, hey, I like the product so much I use it myself.
Speaker A:They're doing it because it makes business sense.
Speaker A:And they're sort of laying out a framework and a pathway for other companies to see how to get that value out of it, which is.
Speaker A:All of that is interesting.
Speaker A:We forgot though, at the start of this episode to do our shout outs like we.
Speaker A:We discussed a shout out.
Speaker A:And I'm going to apologize in advance if I get your name wrong, but Eric A R I K is I.
Speaker A:So I'm just go with Eric.
Speaker A:Appreciate you.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He is our Spotify hero listener.
Speaker A:I think he's the only one who's commented on our episodes on Spotify.
Speaker A:So thank you, Eric.
Speaker A:We appreciate the, the encouragement and the engagement.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And then also I'll just give another shout out to my neighbor Nathan.
Speaker A:I know he's listening.
Speaker A:I know he's aware when we miss one, which.
Speaker A:Apologies for that, but.
Speaker A:So another shout out to Nathan.
Speaker A:And yes, Nathan, I really do think AI is coming for our jobs.
Speaker A:We had a brief chat in my driveway the other day about that.
Speaker A:So anyway, so there's our shot.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:And so let's look at this from another angle too, because I don't think we've talked about this.
Speaker A:It feels like it's been forever since we recorded.
Speaker C:It's been two weeks.
Speaker A:Two weeks.
Speaker A:It feels like a lifetime but probably is for some sort of bug, the 14 day lifespan.
Speaker A:Anyway, sorry, one of the issues.
Speaker A:And Artie, I'm going to ask you to comment on this.
Speaker A:Where I'm seeing it feels to me like the destruction that's going to be wrought by AI on the employment, just employment period globally feels so urgent to me, but it feels like it's easy for a lot of people to not see it at all.
Speaker A:And one of the areas that I think it's going to be most felt or felt most acutely the earliest is entry level jobs, especially entry level jobs that lead to white collar jobs.
Speaker A:And I did see some reports recently, actually I read an article in the Economist even that was talking about.
Speaker A:Yes, that's already starting to happen.
Speaker A:People are ramping stuff down.
Speaker A:So Artie, can you talk to us about any statistics you might have related to that and sort of give us your outlook on why.
Speaker A:Why would those jobs be the most or the earliest impact?
Speaker A:They're almost the sort of the canary in the mine, right?
Speaker A:Like why them and what does the current state of those jobs and the value of a college degree, what does that have to do with what the future looks like for employment?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's definitely a big concern right now.
Speaker B:Entry level jobs, especially those that are stepping stones into white collar careers, are often the first to be automated because they typically involve more routine tasks that AI can handle pretty easily.
Speaker B:Things like data entry, basic analysis, customer service.
Speaker B:These roles are becoming more automated and that can make it harder for people just entering the workforce to get that initial experience they need.
Speaker B:As for the value of a college degree, it's definitely evolving.
Speaker B:A degree used to be almost a guaranteed tip it to a stable career.
Speaker B:But now companies are also looking for skills that AI can't easily replicate, like creativity, complex problem solving, emotional intelligence, all those human centric skills.
Speaker B:So it's a shifting landscape and it's definitely something keep an eye on.
Speaker A:Well, once again I would argue that those are, I mean the three things you mentioned specifically creativity, sort of emotional intelligence.
Speaker A:And I forgot the third one was.
Speaker A:But anyway, those are all things I think AI is pretty decent at already and likely to get substantially better at.
Speaker A:And I think the.
Speaker A:So one of the ways I've heard this AI, I sort of hate to call it a revolution that seems too sort of headliney, but it probably kind of is.
Speaker A:And one of the ways I've heard it talked about is essentially the automation of knowledge work.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, and we've talked about this a little bit before too, like there's Going to be no substantial value for humans carrying knowledge around in your head in the future because you're going to have something in your pocket or implanted in your head that.
Speaker C:Thanks, Elon.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:That essentially has access to all the knowledge that humankind has come up with so far.
Speaker A:And so one of the things you hope to learn in college is to capture that knowledge and to go through the, the routine of learning how to apply it and all those things.
Speaker A:And yeah, I think it's at high risk.
Speaker A:Like, I think the, the U.S. it's probably global, but for sure, in the U.S. the higher education system has been broken for a long time.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:There's been this like, it's sort of like gatekeeping certain careers if you don't have your degree, even though the degree doesn't necessarily demonstrably improve your ability to do the work.
Speaker C:And seen a lot of bad engineers.
Speaker A:A lot of bad PEs, tons of bad PE, right?
Speaker A:Like, yeah, I mean, bad engineers.
Speaker A:I've worked with lots of MBAs who could barely do basic math.
Speaker A:I like and don't understand how business works.
Speaker A:I mean, not all of them.
Speaker A:There's some of you out there.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Or haven't.
Speaker A:It's not, I'm not saying all of them.
Speaker A:I'm just saying, like, if you have a master's degree and you can't do basic math, like, that's a problem, I think, anyway.
Speaker A:So I think education gets attacked one, because you can learn faster and better with a personalized AI tutor, and two, because there just is going to be a lot less value placed everywhere in, oh, I know how to do this.
Speaker A:Like, so what?
Speaker A:So does, so does my AI.
Speaker C:So I mean, if you think about it from like a project manager point.
Speaker A:Of view.
Speaker C:Kind of the entry point into that is being a project coordinator.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that's, I mean, I'd argue that being a project manager is a lot of.
Speaker C:Is mostly data in, data out and a little bit intuition.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Like, that's what a project manager is.
Speaker C:Project coordinator is nothing but data in data out.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So that when a project manager doesn't need the inefficient way of trying to get something out of a person that they can immediately get from an AI, that job's gone.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Like lots of those jobs are gone.
Speaker A:And so anyway, Artie, maybe just give us, give us some thoughts on that.
Speaker A:So talk a little bit about the.
Speaker A:I do think there's data to support the declining value of a degree in the United States, at least a bachelor's degree.
Speaker A:There's declining expectations in how quickly you're going to find a job out of college.
Speaker A:Can you talk to us a little bit about, you know, those are things that have been happening even before AI, but to me, AI seems like it just accelerates that process.
Speaker C:Steps on it.
Speaker A:Yeah, it squashes it.
Speaker A:So, Artie, what do you think?
Speaker B:Yeah, you're absolutely right that these trends have been happening for a while.
Speaker B:The value of a bachelor's degree has been shifting for years now, especially as more people have gotten degrees.
Speaker B:And that sort of made it a baseline requirement for a lot of jobs.
Speaker B:So it doesn't necessarily set you apart in the same way it used to.
Speaker B:And AI definitely accelerates that shift because it can automate a lot of the knowledge based tasks that used to require that degree.
Speaker B:And you're right, project management is a great example.
Speaker B:AI can handle a lot of the data processing and it can even help with decision making and intuition over time as it learns from patterns.
Speaker B:So we are really seeing this transformation where the emphasis is shifting towards skills that are uniquely human or that involve managing and collaborating with AI rather than just knowing facts or processes.
Speaker C:You know what, Micah?
Speaker C:I think exactly what you think, but with more flowery language.
Speaker A:That's why I like you, Mike.
Speaker A:You and Artie are my best friends.
Speaker A:It's perfect.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The thing I hate the most in life is people disagreeing with me.
Speaker A:Even.
Speaker A:Even if they don't disagree, but they sort of subtly hint that they might disagree, I'll cut them out of my life instantly replaced with AI.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like what do I need you for?
Speaker A:What I got already?
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, it is.
Speaker A:There's definitely a little bit of that still.
Speaker A:Well, not a little bit.
Speaker A:There's quite a bit still there.
Speaker A:So, Artie, you mentioned, you know, a lot of these jobs and, and skills are going to be, or a lot of the opportunities are going to be for people who can work well and collaborate with AI, which I think is true.
Speaker A:Which has given rise to the sort of.
Speaker A:There's, there's, you know, sayings or memes out there that I see frequently like you're not going to lose your job to AI.
Speaker A:You're going to lose your job to somebody who's better working with AI than you are.
Speaker A:And then somebody I saw did that, did a meme with.
Speaker A:Actually it wasn't somebody, I don't know that he created it, but I know who posted it was a guy named David Shapiro.
Speaker A:And it was two horses talking to each other and one Horse says to the other, you're not going to lose your job to a steam engine.
Speaker A:You're going to lose your job to a horse who knows how to drive a steam engine.
Speaker A:And it did make me laugh because that's sort of what I see too.
Speaker A:The, the phase where there's value, some significant value and significant differentiation in being a human who is good at collaborating with AI is a short phase, I.
Speaker C:Think, like, it's just a stepping stone.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And in a lot of big things, revolutions, since I've already just.
Speaker A:We'll just go with that, Mike.
Speaker A:Just fucking tear the whole studio down.
Speaker A:The, like, fast changes in revolutions typically take like 20 years.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:When I say a short time frame.
Speaker C:I'm talking about five years max.
Speaker A:Yeah, five years on the outside.
Speaker A:Maybe like, maybe two years is the.
Speaker A:Is the shortest I think it's going.
Speaker C:To take robots coming fully online because there will be people in the middle of that until that's a thing.
Speaker A:So somebody who.
Speaker A: promising self driving since: Speaker A:Anyway, it might have been Musk or he might.
Speaker A:I think he agreed with whoever said this.
Speaker A:And Artie, you might be able to look this up.
Speaker A: robots is in the early to mid-: Speaker A: ey said by something like, by: Speaker A:And I was like, well, that, yeah, okay, that seems legit.
Speaker A:That's ten years from now.
Speaker A:That is not a long way.
Speaker C:It could be a lot shorter timeline.
Speaker A:It could be faster than that.
Speaker A:And so, Artie, can you find any information on that?
Speaker A:So it might have been Elon Musk.
Speaker A: projected that in the, in the: Speaker B: has indeed predicted that by: Speaker B:It's a pretty bold vision and it's not that far away.
Speaker B:Some experts are a bit skeptical about whether humanoid robots are the best fit for all these tasks.
Speaker B:But the idea is definitely out there and it's gaining traction.
Speaker B:So the future might arrive even faster than we think.
Speaker C:Artie, do you know where you pulled that data from and when it was from.
Speaker B: usk actually mentions that by: Speaker B:So it's a pretty ambitious projection.
Speaker B: looking at is more around the: Speaker C:So I was gonna say it's interesting to see like a little tangent that what.
Speaker C:How Transformers work wouldn't have the immediate recall of that stuff.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like it's.
Speaker C:Once it's in and out, it's a fuzzy thing, right?
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker C:And that fuzzy thing can then be re.
Speaker C:Looked up to see where that fuzzy thing came from, to go look up.
Speaker A:The detail that you smoothed away.
Speaker C:Well.
Speaker C:Or just got plain wrong.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Good job, Artie.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:It's kind of fun how it works.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The general idea sticks around, but the specifics sometimes need a refresher.
Speaker B:It's a little bit like how we remember things too.
Speaker A:Yes, we do.
Speaker A:I don't remember things very well.
Speaker C: an, I don't think I'd go from: Speaker C:There'd be 10 billion.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A: Which would be by: Speaker A:That will be more than the number of humans.
Speaker A:There'll be more robots than humans.
Speaker C:Well, maybe.
Speaker A:I. I mean, I think the.
Speaker A:In.
Speaker A:In parts of the world where the population was growing the fastest, they're.
Speaker A:They're headed for, like, they're headed inescapably for population decline.
Speaker A:Now we in the US Will probably find.
Speaker A:So I think we're.
Speaker A:We're going to now incentivize people with like $5,000 each to have babies, which is great because.
Speaker C:Are you serious?
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:I. I don't know if that happened.
Speaker A:I think that might be rolled into the.
Speaker A:To the.
Speaker A:To the bill.
Speaker A:Because the best.
Speaker A:What happens, Mike, with that is you ensure that the most qualified people who are the most qualified to.
Speaker A:To raise children well and make them contributing members of society get that money.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker C:So not only are we.
Speaker C:Were we already fulfilling the idiocracy prophecy, but now we're gonna fast track it.
Speaker A:Acceleration.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Through cash incentives.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:I think it's brilliant.
Speaker A:I can't think of a better way to do it, but man, our brilliance will be offset by other countries who have.
Speaker A:I mean, and I don't know.
Speaker A:I know Japan's in a lot of trouble.
Speaker A:I think South Korea is in even more trouble, population wise.
Speaker A:Population wise.
Speaker A:China's in trouble.
Speaker A:China's Obviously the heavy hitter there.
Speaker A:Number of people wise.
Speaker A:But I think there are other countries as well where birth rates are falling.
Speaker A:Europe.
Speaker A:Yeah, most of Europe.
Speaker A:And even in the US it's falling.
Speaker A:I mean, so.
Speaker A:Which that's always seemed weird to me, right?
Speaker A:Like every.
Speaker A:For us to just maintain.
Speaker C:Every two people have to have two people.
Speaker A:Every two people have to have 2 people.
Speaker A:And like I know a lot of people without kids.
Speaker A:I. Yeah, like you and.
Speaker A:And lots of people.
Speaker A:And I just think, how do I guess you, you like you're just offsetting the, the fine folks in Utah where one dude will have 20 wives and seven kids.
Speaker A:And you go, I'm, I'm helping make up.
Speaker A:Anyway, that's a tangent.
Speaker A:But I.
Speaker A: billion robots in: Speaker A:So the humanoid robot too already you mentioned that.
Speaker A:I used to be.
Speaker A:For a long time I was like, people always, you know, hear robot and they think of the Terminator.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:I've sort of flipped my position on that a little bit.
Speaker A:The benefit of humanoid robots is that you don't have to design the robot around the environment or design the environment around the robot.
Speaker A:If it's shaped like a human and it can reach and lift and do the things humans can do, it could walk into my kitchen and interact with all the stuff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:So I think, I think that is how it will probably play out.
Speaker A:And it'll be interesting to watch.
Speaker A:We have.
Speaker A:There's a little Roomba sitting right over there.
Speaker A:It's not a Roomba because I want spend 900 on a vacuum, but it's the same.
Speaker A:It's a robot.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The vacuums and does the stuff.
Speaker A:It'll be interesting to watch those evolve and become taller and more capable as they do more things.
Speaker A:Because I think that's how that will happen.
Speaker C:It's modular format.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:It's modular format.
Speaker A:And yeah, I could see Yoruba growing, growing an arm on the top of it.
Speaker C:Or just go back to regular vacuums in a robot that pushes your vacuum around.
Speaker A:Yes, that's right, exactly.
Speaker A:I mean, we talked, we mentioned it in that one episode about.
Speaker A:I don't, I don't want robot cars.
Speaker A:I want cars.
Speaker A:And I'll.
Speaker A:We'll get a robot that can drive my car because it's shaped like a human.
Speaker A:You have his own seat settings, little memory settings.
Speaker A:Robot.
Speaker A:Have at it, man.
Speaker A:Go nuts.
Speaker A:So there was no point.
Speaker A:I don't think in all of that.
Speaker C:There'S no point to this episode.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker A:There's no point to this podcast.
Speaker A:I think we're, I think we're, we're six months in.
Speaker A:It's, it's too late to pretend that that's not the truth.
Speaker C:It's true.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker A:So the.
Speaker A:I've got two daughters in college today and my family was like, visibly shocked.
Speaker A:I would say they were agog when I said the other night that I think we're almost to the point where being really good at working with AI is likely to provide more immediate and sustained future financial benefit than a college degree, especially a non specialized one.
Speaker A:Like you get a psychology degree or like, whatever.
Speaker A:There's like five that are the top, most achieved bachelor's degrees, man.
Speaker A:And so my kids are like, do we drop out of school?
Speaker A:And I'm like, I'm not saying that.
Speaker A:I'm just saying start learning.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Interact a lot.
Speaker A:And soon.
Speaker C:The thing is, is it's not going to be relegated to one field.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's going to be.
Speaker C:Everybody needs people that understands how to use it because everybody's going to be behind on using it.
Speaker C:So they need good people that can bootstrap the other people that can benefit from it.
Speaker C:So that's really.
Speaker C:I mean, that's honestly most of what I do at work when it comes to AI stuff.
Speaker C:I mean, I use it to develop things here and there, but I also like, talk to people when they have a problem using it and I say, want to try it like this?
Speaker C:Or, you know, go talk to somebody who's barely using it and tell them, get, get all excited about agents and whatever it is that's going on.
Speaker C:Next thing you know, they're digging into it, they're on their own.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:You just spread that seed.
Speaker A:Yeah, yep.
Speaker A:Dr. Alex Mitchell mentioned it and said we're fertilizing the ground, which is.
Speaker A:That feels right.
Speaker A:And I don't think we're fertilizing it for like alfalfa to sprout up.
Speaker A:I think it's going to be rainforests that pop up.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, Artie, I'm going to ask you to make a prediction and I'm going to.
Speaker A:I know you're sort of constrained by your training data and all that stuff, but I want you to, I want you to dig deep on this one.
Speaker A:I probably should have asked you to do a deep research beforehand as Mike subtly acquires more jelly bellies.
Speaker A:So I think what's going to happen with AI in the next Six months is.
Speaker A:It's going to break out in some relatively unexpected, maybe semi obscure profession where it's just going to get wiped out and probably something smaller.
Speaker A:But it seems like things always happen that way, right?
Speaker A:Like, and we're going to go, shit, man, why didn't I think of that?
Speaker A:Of course it makes sense.
Speaker A:Like you can do that today.
Speaker A:So Artie, if you had to make a guess and pick, and I want you to do this again, like, do some research, like, take your time.
Speaker A:Which, which specific job or industry is going to be the most impacted by AI in the next six months?
Speaker A:And I want you to.
Speaker A:By most impacted, I mean the greatest percentage of jobs lost or not created.
Speaker A:So even if it's a small industry, if 90% of their jobs get wiped out, that would be a high impact to me.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker C:And it can't be software engineering.
Speaker A:Yeah, something besides coding.
Speaker B:So based on what I found, a few industries are going to see some pretty big shifts in the next six months.
Speaker B:Healthcare is one of them, especially with AI helping out in medical imaging and drug development.
Speaker B:Finance is another big one where AI is automating things like fraud detection and customer service.
Speaker B:And then there's manufacturing, where AI powered robots are making production lines even more efficient.
Speaker B:So it's not necessarily one tiny industry getting completely wiped out, but more like these big industries are going to see a lot of transformation really quickly.
Speaker C:And that is AI is probability distribution in a nutshell.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It needed three things and it went good on the first two.
Speaker C:And then the other one's like way out here.
Speaker C:Yeah, because that's not true.
Speaker C:Manufacturing is not going to be impacted in the next six months.
Speaker A:Yeah, not, not to scale.
Speaker A:Mostly because we, we don't have.
Speaker A:Well, there's a few reasons.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:It's an interesting answer, Artie.
Speaker A:I really was hoping for like some deeply insightful, like, you know, travel agents or something.
Speaker A:Maybe you're gonna get like.
Speaker A:But anyway, whatever.
Speaker C:They still have jobs.
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:I think they still exist.
Speaker A:Yeah, you would have thought like the Internet would have wiped them out, but they're like cockroaches.
Speaker C:No, I thought they would have died with the shoe salesman.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I think they're still around.
Speaker A:Actually, I'm not even positive.
Speaker A:I, I don't travel, so I wouldn't know.
Speaker A:But I think I heard somebody talking about that.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:So he sort of brought us back to robots again, which, by the way, like, I love robots.
Speaker A:I love everything about robotics.
Speaker A:I think it's super fascinating.
Speaker A:I think there are so Many interesting challenges in making humanoid robots with dexterity.
Speaker A:Mike and I have spent some time chatting recently about what's called E skin, which is essentially applying pressure shear force sensors, sensitive force sensors, into a flexible matrix around the skeletal parts of a robot to allow it to sense what it's holding, which is a super interesting problem to solve.
Speaker A:So I love everything about robotics.
Speaker A:I think what's missing in robotics today is we're still in the phase of all these different companies.
Speaker A:Some big.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know if Optimus is a Tesla product.
Speaker A:It is Tesla.
Speaker A:So Tesla's obviously got kajillion dollars, although less than they had before.
Speaker A:They've been working on a robot that's doing pretty impressive stuff.
Speaker A:I saw him sorting Optimus sorting loose bags of stuff the other day.
Speaker A:Like, you know, you get the Amazon package.
Speaker A:It's sort of a bag thing.
Speaker A:He was like picking them up and putting the label down and going through them pretty fast.
Speaker A:Pretty dexterous.
Speaker A:But there's no standardization.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There's no off the shelf actuate.
Speaker A:Not none.
Speaker A:But we're still a ways from the industry turning to building blocks of robots, which I think is where it will have to coalesce to before the volumes start to go up.
Speaker A:You know, power cells.
Speaker A:I don't know how they're getting so much power density in these robots.
Speaker A:Actually.
Speaker A:I don't even know what the.
Speaker C:If they're plugged in or if they're on battery.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know what their actual usable life.
Speaker C:They stand on a charging port.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like you'd almost have to.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I don't know how that works yet.
Speaker A:But that's got to get sorted.
Speaker C:That's kind of an interesting addition to logistical problems inside of a plant.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker C:Have a thing that walks around, but everywhere it goes, every station it needs to be at, it can put its foot and get charged.
Speaker A:That's yes.
Speaker A:Pretty cool.
Speaker A:Or even the things it touches, if it has to hold on to stuff.
Speaker A:Is anybody doing that yet?
Speaker A:Artie, should we patent that?
Speaker A:Is anybody doing like humanoid robot charging receptacles that are that where the robot can just walk up and interact with it while it's doing something else.
Speaker B:So it looks like the idea of robots autonomously charging themselves is definitely on the rise.
Speaker B:The market for robot charging stations is growing quickly, and some companies are already working on humanoid robots that can dock and charge themselves without any human help.
Speaker B:So definitely something we keep an eye on and maybe even worth exploring further.
Speaker C:That's not what we said.
Speaker A:It'S adjacent, right?
Speaker A:Like, yeah, okay.
Speaker A:So we're patenting that by the way.
Speaker A:Nobody can take it.
Speaker A:Shut it down.
Speaker A:Cameras to black.
Speaker A:We're cutting that out.
Speaker A:No, but I think it is interesting.
Speaker A:But that is where stuff's heading.
Speaker A:I mean it's hard to hire people.
Speaker A:It's hard to make a workplace comfortable for people.
Speaker A:Oh, I was in a part of the reason we missed last week.
Speaker A:I was in Greenville, South Carolina on a hundred freaking degree day with high humidity.
Speaker C:Sounds like the South.
Speaker A:It sounds exactly like the South.
Speaker A:Fact, as a matter of fact, it was the South.
Speaker A:But the plant I was in was actually, it was maybe 80 degrees in there on the shop floor.
Speaker A:And he said, yeah, our AC is broken.
Speaker A:They're, they're coming in to fix it again tomorrow.
Speaker A:Like it so but I mean they had like 150 or 180,000 square feet under roof and they had it cooled down.
Speaker A:But that's a massive expense, right, to like to cool that much area with high ceilings on days like that.
Speaker A:So those are the kinds of things where, yeah, if it's robots running in there, who cares, man?
Speaker A:Like Let it be 100 degrees in there.
Speaker A:Nobody cares.
Speaker C:The robot the product depends on if.
Speaker A:The product doesn't care.
Speaker A:So anyway, yeah, automation's coming first in the form of AI and agents doing jobs and doing white collar jobs and then in the form of robots doing the rest.
Speaker C:I mean, you know, I just realized, I said that manufacturing won't have, it won't spin up that fast in manufacturing.
Speaker C:But there's also a crisis right now in jobs for manufacturing which are, they're like, I think I saw something that was like 400,000 like manufacturing jobs that are unfilled right now.
Speaker C:So there's nothing like necessity to drive innovation.
Speaker A:This, this is always an interesting conversation for me.
Speaker A:I, I don't have this conversation that much outside of my friends because I don't like to argue, but sometimes I like to argue with people.
Speaker A:Kind of depends, depends on the people.
Speaker A:But I think the, the, the dream we're being sold about manufacturing jobs returning to the US is a complete farce.
Speaker A:Like there is no true.
Speaker A:We have jobs today we can't fill because people do not want to do manufacturing.
Speaker A:It is like, I mean I worked at a fiberglass plant for a long time and we hired lots and lots.
Speaker A:I hired, we hired almost, wasn't I.
Speaker A:There was several of us, but we hired almost two people for every position we had every year to keep a full staff on the floor.
Speaker A:So we would our hire rate was 2x our and a significant chunk of those people stayed there and were steady.
Speaker A:So it was really like 30 positions.
Speaker A:We were just constantly churning people through.
Speaker A:Now fiberglass work is tough.
Speaker A:It's terrible.
Speaker A:It smells bad, it's dusty, it's dirty, it sticks to you.
Speaker A:It's like, it's tough.
Speaker A:But those are manufacturing jobs.
Speaker A:Pretty decent pay.
Speaker A:People don't want them.
Speaker A:It's not fun.
Speaker C:And so now for everybody thinking that jobs aren't going away or that we're really far away or all of that stuff, think about the economics of that.
Speaker C:Think about not only do you have to employ a person, but you have to be prepared to employ another person within a year.
Speaker C:All of those positions have multiple people maintaining job ads and interviewing and all of this time spent money spending up payroll and yep.
Speaker C:Doing all the things that goes along with that.
Speaker C:So now if an owner of a company can go, wow, I could replace, let's say 50% of my workforce, not only am I going to immediately save that because I have these things that can work tirelessly and don't.
Speaker C:They don't change their performance throughout the day or month over month or year over year.
Speaker C:They just keep performing right.
Speaker C:And I don't have to spend all of this overhead that supports keeping that rotating bunch of staff.
Speaker C:It's, it's a no brainer for a person who runs a business.
Speaker A:So Artie, I'm going to let you talk about that for a second and then I'm going to take it another step.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:From a business perspective, the economics are pretty compelling, especially when you factor in all those hidden costs of turnover, training and just maintaining a human workforce.
Speaker B:Robots and I can definitely bring consistency and efficiency and that's, that's hard to be.
Speaker B:And like, like you said, it's a, is a no brainer from that standpoint.
Speaker A:So already mentioned part of it to me, which is training because that's, that's the other problem.
Speaker A:Once I finally, you know, once I interview five people and I hire one.
Speaker C:You'Re six months away from that being reusable.
Speaker A:I, I'm, I'm, you know, depending on the complexity of what they're doing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It takes, you know, months to get that and it is very difficult to predict when you hire somebody what their actual aptitude is going to be once they're trained up.
Speaker A:So that was the first place my head went.
Speaker A:But then it went beyond that because another problem that manufacturing has, and you and I both know this one very well, is inconsistency.
Speaker A:Of demand, right?
Speaker A:Like we ship X amount in this quarter and we ship 10x that in a different quarter.
Speaker A:And so you end up compromising, trying to run your business down the average, down the mean.
Speaker A:But when things are slow, because a lot of businesses are cyclical or seasonal, when things are slow, you've got people tripping over each other with nothing to do.
Speaker A:And when businesses are busy, it's very hard to hire enough people at the right time and train them as the workflow is coming now.
Speaker A:Instead, I can simply lease more robots and they will be trained as they walk through the door and to come in and support my higher demand work.
Speaker A:And when I'm done with them, I can terminate the lease or maybe I only did a six month lease or whatever it was, I can send them back to be utilized by the robot brokers who are bringing the right talent at the right time with the right compatibility and the right skills.
Speaker A:And the training is instant.
Speaker C:Dude, it's temp robot workers.
Speaker C:None of them have to be trained on anything.
Speaker A:That's right, it's temp robot workers.
Speaker A:But they all know exactly what to do.
Speaker A:And then you go, well, do you really have permanent robot?
Speaker C:Like you have some baseline and you just load and offload based on that?
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:It's like, well, so Artie, what do you think about that?
Speaker C:Patented.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's also patented, by the way.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:It'S definitely a fascinating vision of the future and it makes a lot of sense from a business standpoint.
Speaker B:Having that flexibility to scale up and down with temporary robo workers is a game changer.
Speaker B:It means businesses can be so much more efficient and responsive to demand without all the traditional headaches.
Speaker B:So I think you're definitely onto something there.
Speaker C:But it doesn't even have to be temp robot workers, right?
Speaker C:It can be temp any AI worker.
Speaker C:Yes, it could be.
Speaker C:I need.
Speaker C:Shit.
Speaker C:I have a special project that I need another project manager for.
Speaker C:Cool, I got one.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's labor as a service, right?
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:That's tm.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Trademark.
Speaker A:Lass loss.
Speaker A:L A A S LA Anyway, we're still working on that part of it that's not ready for, for marketing yet.
Speaker A:But I mean, that's how it's gonna work, right?
Speaker A:Like it doesn't make sense to.
Speaker A:It won't make sense to not run a business that way.
Speaker A:Which is, which is kind of a wild thing.
Speaker C:I mean, anybody building agents, right?
Speaker C:So I see it almost like a marketplace.
Speaker C:You have people that Build agents for some amount of time for customers, right?
Speaker C:And they build up this library of agents.
Speaker C:And then at that point you just figure out how to modularize that.
Speaker C:You figure out how to make the inputs, create the outputs you want based on what's in between.
Speaker C:But in between just be tweakable parameters.
Speaker A:I just made up in my head another trademark patented thing which is a task definition protocol, right?
Speaker A:Like you, every piece of physical work that gets done in every job would get broken down into some would be compliant with some predefined protocol about how we define tasks and the things you interact with when doing Those tasks, including 3D models, spatial models of the area, instructions on how to do it, instructions on how to inspect quality in while you're doing it.
Speaker A:And that becomes a piece of information that you can just dump into any TDP compliant, trademark *, patented copyright.
Speaker A:You can drop this TDP lump into every single robot.
Speaker A:That's the training as they come in.
Speaker A:And now they go, oh yeah, I know exactly what I'm doing, how to do it, how to measure quality, how to inspect it.
Speaker C:Oh, but you missed these things.
Speaker C:These are the other parameters that I need based on what you provided me.
Speaker C:Like, I need more clarify.
Speaker C:Like that's the beauty of AI, right?
Speaker C:Like none of this is you have to be 100% correct every time.
Speaker C:It's a. Oh, you got me 75% of the way there.
Speaker C:Let me tell you what else I need in order to do this and how you need to give that to me.
Speaker A:We're going to get tired of robots saying, I have questions.
Speaker A:Shut the fuck up, robot.
Speaker A:When I want you to speak, I'll put the remote at you and hit the talk button.
Speaker A:Until then, you shut the up running the good shop floor anyway.
Speaker C:Sounds like a job for Seth.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah, my brother will be king of the world at that point.
Speaker A:Like, yeah.
Speaker A:So that I thought, this is a good segue, I think, to how are we doing on time?
Speaker A:We're good.
Speaker A:So, Artie, look up a guy named David Shapiro, and he's working on a paper, a thesis and a paper and maybe a book about what he's calling post labor economics.
Speaker A:So can you look that up and give us a sort of a high level overview of what that is?
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker C:Is there a lot of information to comb through, Artie?
Speaker B:All right, so David Shapiro's concept of post labor economics is really interesting.
Speaker B:It's all about imagining a future where AI and automation handle most of the work and humans don't have to rely on traditional jobs for their livelihood.
Speaker B:He's exploring how the economy might adapt, what kind of new systems we might need to ensure everyone has access to resources, and how society might change when work isn't the central focus of our lives.
Speaker B:It's a pretty fascinating and kind of optimistic takeaway we could be headed.
Speaker A:So I think one of the parts that's interesting to me about his stuff, and I only sort of found him semi recently, and so I've been trying to, you know, listen more and read some more of his stuff, but he sort of talks about exactly what we're talking about here, which is the fundamental economic principle of how work works in most of the world.
Speaker A:I don't know that it's just capitalism.
Speaker A:I think it's kind of everywhere is that I as a human, theoretically, not me personally, so just bear with me.
Speaker A:But I can deliver value to help some business further its own interest, right?
Speaker A:And in exchange for that, that business pays me some amount of money.
Speaker A:And if this relationship makes sense and it's, it's symbiotic, we just keep doing that over and over.
Speaker A:But that goes away when our Rent A Bot trademark, copyright, patented hashtag, don't steal it.
Speaker A:When Rent A Bot is available and.
Speaker C:He already owns the domain.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:I've literally bought the domain while we're sitting here with my neuralink implant.
Speaker A:That's the only reason I got it.
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker A:No, I mean, I might.
Speaker A:But when that happens, that fundamental exchange of, hey, I'm a human who's here to help further the interest of the business goes away.
Speaker A:It breaks down.
Speaker A:So for many, many humans, there will not be an opportunity.
Speaker A:There will be no business who's interested in engaging them because they've got an AI that is almost certainly more capable, less expensive, less unpredictable, less variable in their output and demeanor.
Speaker A:Attendance, attendance, somebody who, unlike me, will, will happily read every email and reply rather than verbally cussing out loud that somebody had the, like the lack of consideration to try to email me when I'm in the middle of a meeting.
Speaker A:Like, how dare they?
Speaker A:Anyway, so I think it's an interesting concept.
Speaker A:And he's, he, I think he's working with another guy.
Speaker A:They haven't fleshed it out all the way, but I, I think that is the problem ahead of us.
Speaker A:And if you think it's two years out, maybe that's a little early.
Speaker A:And if you think it's 10 years out, maybe that's a little late, but it's not, it's not 20 years out.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:It's on the horizon.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:We can see it from here.
Speaker A:And so yeah, I think that's all very interesting and, and think about how slow just again in the US like turning the ship of.
Speaker A:Of anything is on a national level, on a federal level.
Speaker A:We can't do anything.
Speaker A:Like there's.
Speaker A:We have no chance in 10 years of a coherent, well reasoned.
Speaker A:It doesn't matter who's in office.
Speaker A:Like this is not a political statement.
Speaker A:This is a just.
Speaker A:We're like we.
Speaker A:We don't have a system or infrastructure in place to make decisions at this scale in any way that is smart or long lived.
Speaker C:We didn't have that capability.
Speaker C:Internet and the Internet moved slow.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like it took 20 years for the Internet to get MA.
Speaker C:Critical mass.
Speaker C:And we're not talking about the Internet from its origin where it was in a lab.
Speaker C:The military, government's doing things with.
Speaker A:Talking about when AOL spammed the world with CDs in 10 cases in the mail.
Speaker C:And that's 20 years.
Speaker C:And we've.
Speaker C:Not only do you have the Internet being hard to adopt and regulate, but you also have the things that have spun off.
Speaker C:Spun.
Speaker C:Spun off of that like social media is a.
Speaker C:From the Internet.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Like all of these other things that have become other big issues than our current times.
Speaker C:Yep, still have.
Speaker C:They still have a hard time regulating those.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker C:AI has been two years like since it's been released to the masses and it will.
Speaker C:And call it three, call it five, call it whatever you want.
Speaker C:It's still like it's moving way faster than the Internet ever could even.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Even for a technology thing, it's moving really, really fast.
Speaker A:And I think, well.
Speaker A:So Artie, you got any thoughts on that you want to share before we keep talking?
Speaker B:Yeah, you're both spot on.
Speaker B:The pace of AI advancement is just on another level compared to past technologies.
Speaker B:And the way it touches everything makes it even more challenging to keep up with.
Speaker B:It's definitely going to require some creative thinking and probably some big shifts in how we approach regulation, education and the economy as a whole.
Speaker B:So it's definitely going to be an interesting ride.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're like.
Speaker A:I think that's the.
Speaker A:Like I just, I don't see any way that we're not.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I. I've never been a believer in the promise that oh, AI is going to create more jobs than it eliminates.
Speaker A:I don't think that's true.
Speaker A:But the transition is going to be painful and interesting and I. I think we're gonna struggle a lot because companies, I mean, so I can speak.
Speaker A:Oh, already went brain dead.
Speaker A:I'll bring him back, breathe new life into him.
Speaker A:Hey, Artie, you went brain dead for a minute there, but you're back with us.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:The, the company I work at, we do mostly.
Speaker A:It's mostly white collar workers and we're still hiring humans.
Speaker A:But I see that slowing down substantially over the next couple of years to the point because even at today's prices and compute's going to go down and cost of AI is going to go down and capabilities are going to go up.
Speaker A:Even at today's prices and today's capabilities, AI is pretty compelling as a way to support and prop up the people you have.
Speaker A:But that equation is very quickly going to change to the opposite where it's like, oh, you have humans answering phones.
Speaker A: Like, oh, wow, that's so very: Speaker C:You still have spreadsheets.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Spread out all over your server as your data sources.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I remember hearing about Excel.
Speaker A:Yeah, I remember that.
Speaker A:Um, yeah, I've never seen it, but I remember hearing about it.
Speaker A:I read about it in the book.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it's going to be wild.
Speaker A:And I, you know, again, to anybody listening, the best thing you can be doing today is just.
Speaker A:I would.
Speaker A:This is almost.
Speaker A:I sort of don't want to say this because I don't.
Speaker A:I don't like.
Speaker A:Like, I spend too much time sitting in front of a computer.
Speaker A:I know that in my life.
Speaker A:And I'm trying to pry myself away and go outside every now and again.
Speaker A:Although there's this bright.
Speaker A:Have you seen the bright sing in the sky?
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's like super bright.
Speaker C:Is it a meteor?
Speaker A:No, it just hangs there every day it goes up and down.
Speaker A:Like in the mornings, it's closer to the.
Speaker A:Then in the middle of the day, it's up high.
Speaker A:Anyway, it'll burn the.
Speaker A:Out of you.
Speaker A:Like, my shoulder's all peeling because.
Speaker C:Don't worry, AI won't help that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anyway, I want to say to people, use AI every day.
Speaker A:Like, find a reason to interact with it every day.
Speaker A:And if you are uncomfortable interacting with it, you don't know how to interact with it, ask it.
Speaker A:That's the first question.
Speaker A:First thing you can tell.
Speaker A:The first thing you can ask it is, I don't even know what to do.
Speaker A:And I promise you it will be very excited to share all kinds of.
Speaker C:Ideas with you about some of them might really suck.
Speaker C:You're out the way.
Speaker C:That's the Thing about AI is you have to be really willing to wade through stuff that doesn't either.
Speaker C:Doesn't make sense, doesn't apply, doesn't get you excited, doesn't fill in the blank for the gems.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like, if you can have the resiliency just to get through a little bit of.
Speaker C:You can eventually get something.
Speaker C:You're like, oh, wow, that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker A:And then you.
Speaker A:And we've talked about this a little bit before.
Speaker A:You start.
Speaker A:You start sort of learning how to tailor your thinking about problems to go, this is the part I should work on.
Speaker A:This is the part AI can help me with.
Speaker A:And it's a very powerful combination.
Speaker C:So I think the other thing people need to think about when it comes to this kind of stuff is.
Speaker C:You said it when.
Speaker C:With Musk.
Speaker C:And I think even in his mind, maybe it's not.
Speaker C:I'm sure it is.
Speaker C:He's a pretty smart guy.
Speaker C:But timelines are not linear with this stuff.
Speaker C:Like, you're not like, oh, five years down the road.
Speaker C:Maybe five years down the road at the pace.
Speaker C:At the level at which we are now.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:But inevitably.
Speaker C:And there might be bobbles, we might not be always ramping up.
Speaker C:It might come down a little bit.
Speaker C:But generally there's going to be a steeper and steeper curve of what our capabilities are with what our current capabilities are.
Speaker C:So six months down the road, we're not going to be accelerating at the same rate we are now because there's going to be better models, there's going to be better ways to apply those models.
Speaker C:There's going to be more universal ways to apply them for people who may not be the most technically savvy.
Speaker C:So every.
Speaker C:It's more like every three months, it feels like is the cycle.
Speaker C:Like there's four, like three to four cycles a year where we see these level changes and those level changes might be, like, radical at some point in the future because of how much progress we can make in a small amount of time.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker C:So five years from now, say, like, the Internet's pace is probably 20 years for that.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Totally agree.
Speaker A:It's exponential.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And we're humans are just naturally bad at understanding exponential things, which is wild.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:You got anything else you want to chat about?
Speaker C:No, just.
Speaker C:Just being lazy.
Speaker C:Not working on anything at home.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm.
Speaker C:I've not touched.
Speaker C:I've not.
Speaker C:Other than at work for c. Very specific things.
Speaker C:I've not touched AI for two weeks, really.
Speaker C:So I need.
Speaker C:I needed a break.
Speaker A:I've been using it.
Speaker A:Yeah, probably every day, but not like less than I would like to, but you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Hey, man, Burnout's real.
Speaker A:Burnout is real.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:Someday AI will take my job and I won't have to worry about that.
Speaker A:So, Artie, why don't you give us a nice wrap up for this very well organized, very well researched episode and.
Speaker A:Yeah, why don't you close us out?
Speaker B:I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble responding right now.
Speaker B:Please wait a bit and try again.
Speaker C:That's the old Arty.
Speaker C:That's loud singer already.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So AI is going to come take your job.
Speaker A:And AI is more reliable than humans.
Speaker A:Except sometimes.
Speaker C:I mean, I've met humans that would do that.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker A:I mean, I would do that.
Speaker A:Sound too far fetched for me, but.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Well, thanks everybody who listened.
Speaker A:We'll.
Speaker A:We'll regroup again and.
Speaker A:Well, I guess they'll hear this next week.
Speaker A:So when you guys hear this, I will be on vacation, which is outstanding.
Speaker A:Hopefully I won't be sitting in front of my computer.
